using both organic and synthetic fertilizer together

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fescue_fan
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using both organic and synthetic fertilizer together

Post by fescue_fan » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:24 am

I plan to to Ringer Lawn Restore for my reseeded lawn. A 25 lbs bag of Ringer with NPK of 10-0-6 cost $38. Assuming I need about 1 lbs of N per 1000 square feet. 25 lbs bag of Ringer has 2.5 lbs of N. Since Ringer is quite expensive. Is it a good plan to get half of the Nitrogen from a organic source like Ringer and the other half from a synthetic fertilizer like Lesco?

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Re: using both organic and synthetic fertilizer together

Post by g-man » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:45 am

Sure. And any combination you want (75/25). Some products being sold now and in the future (CarbonX) will be a combo of both in one package.

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Re: using both organic and synthetic fertilizer together

Post by samjonester » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:56 am

What's your goal with the split?

Using organic to support the soil, and synthetic to make it cost less?
Then yes, use whatever synthetic you would like. Some will be fast, some (coated) will be slow. Just split the app by percentage to get what you need for your application (.5 lb N total, 1 lb N total, or whatever).

Using organic for water-insoluble slow-release Nitrogen, and splitting to get some fast-release up front?
Be careful about fast vs slow when you pick your synthetic. Don't choose something that is coated for your synthetic since it will be slow release (just by a different mechanism).

Do you just literally want a mixture of fast and slow N?
If you just want the nitrogen, and want some of it to be fast, and some to be slow, you can buy synthetics that are a certain percentage fast vs slow. Or get 2 different synthetic fertilizers, one fast and one slow. If you go this route, keep in mind that something like Ringer or Milo or Carbon-X do more than just deliver N. They help support your soil health and provide micronutrients to your grass. If you're concerned about that (you probably are), you'll need to do other things. The GCF N-Ext products, for example, were designed as an affordable way for pros to support the soil and still use cheap fertilizers. There are other solutions on this forum that accomplish the same goal as well.
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Re: using both organic and synthetic fertilizer together

Post by fescue_fan » Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:34 am

#1 is the primary reason. Does it matter if I apply the organic first or the synthetic first? Or apply at the same time?

thanks :)
Last edited by fescue_fan on Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: using both organic and synthetic fertilizer together

Post by samjonester » Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:14 pm

:thumbup: You really don't need to worry about it as long as you're still applying reasonable rates, like .3 lb N / M, .5 lb N / M, 1 lb N / M.

You may end up with surges in growth when you apply if there's a significant amount fast release, but you can optimize the timing as you try it out and see how your lawn responds. You can start to determine when you want a quick response from a fast release vs a slow lasting response from slow release. You can even apply smaller amounts more often for a more consistent response over time.

Just try it out and see how it goes. Be careful in the spring, though! You probably don't want much Nitrogen late spring and into summer.
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Re: using both organic and synthetic fertilizer together

Post by fescue_fan » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:26 pm

What is M in the N / M? :)

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Re: using both organic and synthetic fertilizer together

Post by Powhatan » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:41 pm

fescue_fan wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:26 pm
What is M in the N / M? :)
I like ken's explanation:

The use of "M" for 1000sqft is traditional usage in the turf industry, particularly in the USA. Using "M" as an abbreviation for 1000 goes way back -- M is the Roman numeral for 1000.

An advantage of using "M" for agricultural usage is that it avoids confusion that can arise from using "k" for 1000 and having "K" be the chemical symbol for Potassium. There is no chemical element "M" so there is no confusion about whether "M" is referring to 1000 or a nutrient in the traditional agricultural community.

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Re: using both organic and synthetic fertilizer together

Post by quattljl » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:33 pm

I get that M is the Roman numeral for 1000 but coming up through school, the capital M was always the symbol for molarity in chemistry. I still have to stop and think about it when I see guys post it.

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Re: using both organic and synthetic fertilizer together

Post by Suburban Jungle Life » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:22 am

I use a mix all the time. Usually some kind of organic along with urea or ams and SOP depending on what I have on hand and what I found for good deals.

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Re: using both organic and synthetic fertilizer together

Post by gm560 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:29 pm

Do you have a SiteOne in your vicinity? Screamin' Green is a mix of synthetic and organic source of N (5 in total I think). Unless you already have the Ringer and Lesco on hand, I would defer to the pros for optimal mix. It's also relatively cheap, at least for me.... $20 and change for a #50 bag would likely cover your 2k for ages.

You could even get a free #10 sample here https://www.claruschoice.com/free-trial/

There was a thread on the topic that got some action a few months ago.... I will dig up the link.

Edit. Maybe not AGES. But it would last several app. I forgot San Diego was perennially 75 and sunny.... lucky.
Last edited by gm560 on Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: using both organic and synthetic fertilizer together

Post by kaptain_zero » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:04 am

I was going to add that there are quite a few different synthetic/organic fertilizers available. I plan to give a Grigg product a go next year. It's called Turf Rally 16 - 4 - 8 and includes micros, iron, humic acid and kelp. The price is a bit steep, but 1 bag will do my yard for the season and all I'll add to it is probably some starter fert in the spring. I can only get the "Greens" grade locally (small prill size) so it's recommended to only apply 1/2lb N per application as it releases N quicker than the larger fairway prill. These combo fertilizers prefer being watered in and if you go crazy with way too much in one application, they could potentially burn the lawn due to the synthetic N component. Keep it to the recommended rate and add a 1/4" of water afterwards if there isn't any rain in the forecast and all should be good.
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Re: using both organic and synthetic fertilizer together

Post by iowa jim » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:35 am

gm560 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:29 pm
Do you have a SiteOne in your vicinity? Screamin' Green is a mix of synthetic and organic source of N (5 in total I think). Unless you already have the Ringer and Lesco on hand, I would defer to the pros for optimal mix. It's also relatively cheap, at least for me.... $20 and change for a #50 bag would likely cover your 2k for ages.

You could even get a free #10 sample here https://www.claruschoice.com/free-trial/

There was a thread on the topic that got some action a few months ago.... I will dig up the link.

Edit. Maybe not AGES. But it would last several app. I forgot San Diego was perennially 75 and sunny.... lucky.
Not sure on how to post a link , the post you are referring to is in the cool season lawn on page 9 and it is called free fert. hope this helps

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Re: using both organic and synthetic fertilizer together

Post by TN Hawkeye » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:43 pm

In the warmer parts of the year I have put them out together knowing that the synthetic is going to cause immediate results. Then hopefully about the time the synthetic wears off the organic will be kicking in. I saw some decent results but due to the milorganite shortage I was only able to do this twice. Just watch the total N you are applying. 1/4 lb of n from synthetic this week and a 1/4 lb of n from slow release next week plays nicely with spoon feeding. Of course the organic is determined by you microbes.
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Re: using both organic and synthetic fertilizer together

Post by Chris LI » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:34 pm

@fescue_fan

Another alternative to Ringer 10-0-6 is Purely Organic Lawn Food 10-0-2. They're very similar in composition (POP LF is soybean meal and distiller's grains). It's roughly half the price of the Ringer. It's available from HD with free ship to store for about $18.63 for the same size bag (25 lbs.). I tried it this year as an alternative to Ringer and liked it. I wound up purchasing a pallet of their commercial size bags for my ballfields at work.

One more option is a hybrid product from Espoma. Most of their products are fully organic, but they use a blend of organic and synthetic for their 15-0-5 Lawn Food. I like it for the same reason you mentioned above (#1 save money because it goes further). I will sometimes use it in the cooler weather because the synthetics release better in colder temps. It's compromised mostly of methylene urea and feather meal. It contains beneficial bacteria and is roughly 50% slow release.

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Re: using both organic and synthetic fertilizer together

Post by Green » Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:54 pm

Chris LI wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:34 pm


One more option is a hybrid product from Espoma. Most of their products are fully organic, but they use a blend of organic and synthetic for their 15-0-5 Lawn Food. I like it for the same reason you mentioned above (#1 save money because it goes further). I will sometimes use it in the cooler weather because the synthetics release better in colder temps. It's compromised mostly of methylene urea and feather meal. It contains beneficial bacteria and is roughly 50% slow release.
Chris, I was trying to figure out how much of it was organics by N percent earlier this year. See this post: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=5060&p=89531&hilit=Espoma#p89531

Can you weigh in on this topic for everyone's benefit?
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Re: using both organic and synthetic fertilizer together

Post by Chris LI » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:46 pm

I can't determine from the labeling how much is organic vs. synthetic. The label indicates 7.7% out of 15%N, is slow release, which is 51% slow release, overall. Since I've handled the product several times, I would estimate 3/4 of the material appears to be organic. I'm pretty sure the light blue particles are the MU, and the white particles are probably urea and/or sulfate of potash. There is also some ammonium sulfate, sulfate, and ferric oxide (1% iron). I made one error from memory and thought the organic component was feather meal, when it's pasteurized poultry manure.

Also, I thought that I would be a smarty pants and looked up the SDS (Safety Data Sheet) which is required by OSHA for safe handling requirements. The SDS lists the components of a product by percentage. Oh, I found it, but all components I mentioned above had a "*" as a footnote for "trade secret". :censored:
I presume it's to protect the company from someone reverse engineering their product (they probably hold a patent).

If you click on the link below, the fact sheet can be found to download.

https://www.espoma.com/product/espoma-lawn-food/

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Re: using both organic and synthetic fertilizer together

Post by Green » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:19 pm

@Chris LI, that actually helps a lot, and here's why...

Let's say 3/4 of the material (by weight) is organic. All we have to do is use known rough analysis numbers for chicken manure, and we can figure out roughly how much N might be from it.

Edit: roughly 3-2-2 according to UC Davis. The problem with this is, there's a 0 in the P number on the Espoma product. I'm so confused.
Last edited by Green on Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Front: Northern mix - mostly TTTF, KBG, TTPR. Back: Firecracker and Bullseye TTTF with America, Rugby 2, Bewitched KBG. Upper Side: Mostly TTPR, KBG. Lower Side: similar to front. Low-input: Mostly FF, KBG, PR. Always seeding somewhere or fighting Triv.

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Re: using both organic and synthetic fertilizer together

Post by Chris LI » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:54 pm

I was thinking the same thing, but it was too late for my head to be number crunching. I was thinking of comparing some of their other organic products and working out the proportions. Also, knowing that urea is 30% of the N in the product (4.5/15), it gives us a better understanding that urea accounts for the 30% of the 49% of the quick release N. Most of the other component info is bundled, so it makes it a bit harder to definitively break down the numbers.

FYI-at bag rate, N is applied at .6 lbs./K. The big bag (40lbs.) will cover 10K. I've been using this on my ballfields too, and have noticed the relatively quick greenup and it seems to have a decent duration without too much flush growth. Also, it has a nice earthy odor, IMHO.

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Re: using both organic and synthetic fertilizer together

Post by Suburban Jungle Life » Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:16 am

Green wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:19 pm
@Chris LI, that actually helps a lot, and here's why...

Let's say 3/4 of the material (by weight) is organic. All we have to do is use known rough analysis numbers for chicken manure, and we can figure out roughly how much N might be from it.

Edit: roughly 3-2-2 according to UC Davis. The problem with this is, there's a 0 in the P number on the Espoma product. I'm so confused.
The % is a guarantee of a minimum of P. If they mixed other materials into it, that 2% gets watered down by the 0% in the other materials. If it can't even be guaranteed to have 1%, then they leave it at 0% even though it has P.

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Re: using both organic and synthetic fertilizer together

Post by Green » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:08 pm

Suburban Jungle Life wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:16 am


The % is a guarantee of a minimum of P. If they mixed other materials into it, that 2% gets watered down by the 0% in the other materials. If it can't even be guaranteed to have 1%, then they leave it at 0% even though it has P.
You seem to be familiar with how the labeling works. Do you know how the rounding is supposed to work on these things?
Front: Northern mix - mostly TTTF, KBG, TTPR. Back: Firecracker and Bullseye TTTF with America, Rugby 2, Bewitched KBG. Upper Side: Mostly TTPR, KBG. Lower Side: similar to front. Low-input: Mostly FF, KBG, PR. Always seeding somewhere or fighting Triv.

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