N-Ext Products

A place to discuss soil fertility and soil amendments
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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by adgattoni » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:10 am

greengrass wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:09 pm
The Youtubers praising the stuff are also the ones selling it. If the stuff is that great, the big box stores would have bought them off already.
I'm still skeptical of the GCF products specifically, but big box wouldn't carry this even if it did work. I've never seen half the products I use on my yard (celsius, PGR, soil surfactants, etc.) in a big box.

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by NeVs » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:44 am

adgattoni wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:10 am
greengrass wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:09 pm
The Youtubers praising the stuff are also the ones selling it. If the stuff is that great, the big box stores would have bought them off already.
I'm still skeptical of the GCF products specifically, but big box wouldn't carry this even if it did work. I've never seen half the products I use on my yard (celsius, PGR, soil surfactants, etc.) in a big box.
Advertising and selling through youtubers is a phenomenal marketing approach for a startup product. It is also far cheaper than some alternatives. The free word of mouth marketing afterwards is also great.

I would imagine in the future it may expand to additional online suppliers.

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by samjonester » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:28 pm

Anyone have an idea for a 0-0-2 Micrgreen alternative? I like the idea of K, Fe, and S, along with other micros in a sprayable product. I’m fine mixing a powder like I’ve been doing with Kelp4Less Extreme recently. I don’t want to buy a million things to make it, though
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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by greengrass » Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:23 pm

adgattoni wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:10 am
greengrass wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:09 pm
The Youtubers praising the stuff are also the ones selling it. If the stuff is that great, the big box stores would have bought them off already.
I'm still skeptical of the GCF products specifically, but big box wouldn't carry this even if it did work. I've never seen half the products I use on my yard (celsius, PGR, soil surfactants, etc.) in a big box.
That makes sense as well since most shoppers are Harry the handyman not willing to learn what is what and just pick up what is advertised.

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by Suburban Jungle Life » Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:41 am

samjonester wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:28 pm
Anyone have an idea for a 0-0-2 Micrgreen alternative? I like the idea of K, Fe, and S, along with other micros in a sprayable product. I’m fine mixing a powder like I’ve been doing with Kelp4Less Extreme recently. I don’t want to buy a million things to make it, though
I would start here. You'll need to look at their labels to see what product has the micros you want. Compare prices also. Maybe axilo?

https://search.domyown.com/search?w=mic ... lawngarden

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by samjonester » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:40 am

Hm. Thanks @Suburban Jungle Life. None of those really look cheaper per app than the 5 gal bottle of microgreen. However.., looking more closely at the K4L product line...

Mixing these looks like a killer combo:
https://www.kelp4less.com/shop/micro-nutrient-pack/
https://www.kelp4less.com/shop/powder-extreme-blend/

The extreme blend is their kelp, humic, fulvic, and amino acid products blended together.
The kelp gives potassium and a bunch of other micros, fortified by the nutrient pack, and the mineral content should be great. That's basically RGS and the Microgreen+GreenEffect combo mixed together.

Breaking down the costs:

K4L "clones"
$28 (1 lb extreme) + $35 (1 lb micros) = $63 initial investment
Application Options
- As concentrate - mixing both to a 1 gal concentrate and using 3 oz / M
- Using 10g of each product dry / M
Results in just under $1.50 per application / M

RGS + Microgreen/
$115 (5 gal RGS) + $125 (5 gal Microgreen+GreenEffect) = $240 initial investment
Application
- 3 oz RGS / M + 12 oz Microgreen+GreenEffect / M
Results in something like $.50 RGS + $2.50 Microgreen+GreenEffect per app / M

The mineral breakdown in the Microgreen+GreenEffect looks better, and I'm not confident the 10g / M of the K4L minerals is a true clone of what matches between the products, but I know the K4L Extreme vs RGS cost breakdown is correct. Right now I can't stomach the price difference of the initial investment for the products.

I'm going to use those K4L products at 10g of each / M. That will cover ~45 M with each purchase, which for me is 6 applications on my whole property.
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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by Suburban Jungle Life » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:44 am

@samjonester Is this out of desire or are you showing deficient on micros in a soil test?

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by samjonester » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:57 am

My front (common bermuda) is a very steep slope and struggles to stay a deep green throughout the year. I suspect things leach more quickly with the slope, or are bound up. Fertilizers with iron really make it look nice, but not for a significant period of time. I'm not specifically targeting the other micros outside of the fact that I've heard K & S help with color in addition to the iron.

I am very interested in using something like RGS, as it seems like a promising product, and I thought I'd try to get some iron (and maybe K & S) down at the same time. I'm really just trying to lower the need to spread so much expensive Milorganite to get a color boost. I'm also trying to be a bit more targeted with when I fertilize with Nitrogen.

You're probably right, though, and it's overkill. I've never actually tested the front yard, so I probably should just do that first. Maybe there's a cheaper way to amend the "rgs clone" to get the color without all the extra micros.
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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by Suburban Jungle Life » Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:30 am

@samjonester If you want the color, add liquid iron to your spray. For me, iron seems to last 2-3 weeks before I mow it off. If you use PGR in addition to iron, that will really give you a much darker green and extend it longer since you don't mow as often. Regarding the n-ext products and similar stuff, they are more for root growth and chelating nutrients. Do they increase the green color? Maybe, depending if you are having a deficiency. For max green if you aren't changing grass cultivars/types, do a soil test, have the ph around 6.5, correct any low macro/micros so they are not a limiting factor in plant growth/health, have a constant low N rate feeding, and then use pgr + iron. That will make it much darker but of course, if you start with a darker plant to begin with and then do all these, it will be even darker.

Regarding cost, I would stop buying milo if that's the case. Milo is a great way to start getting into lawn care. It's for beginners. Since you are here on TLF, use this resource to do much better than milo could ever do for you. You can just use urea/AMS, MAP/TSP, and SOP. Pound per pound for NPK, they are much much cheaper. Skip the organics as they are pricey. Buy pgr and iron. You will have a thick and dark green lawn. You don't need milo or any organics for that matter. They are slow release products but you can just break up your fert applications into every 2 weeks and now you will have a slow release program. No need to buy organics. Root cycling will increase the organic matter in the soil. No need to add it yourself. But, it's hard to do this properly without a good soil test so you know what to add...

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by adgattoni » Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:35 am

samjonester wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:57 am
My front (common bermuda) is a very steep slope and struggles to stay a deep green throughout the year. I suspect things leach more quickly with the slope, or are bound up. Fertilizers with iron really make it look nice, but not for a significant period of time. I'm not specifically targeting the other micros outside of the fact that I've heard K & S help with color in addition to the iron.

I am very interested in using something like RGS, as it seems like a promising product, and I thought I'd try to get some iron (and maybe K & S) down at the same time. I'm really just trying to lower the need to spread so much expensive Milorganite to get a color boost. I'm also trying to be a bit more targeted with when I fertilize with Nitrogen.

You're probably right, though, and it's overkill. I've never actually tested the front yard, so I probably should just do that first. Maybe there's a cheaper way to amend the "rgs clone" to get the color without all the extra micros.
For your slope, you might consider adding a wetting agent into your program. You might just be having difficulty keeping that area watered. A wetting agent like Tournament Ready would hold moisture in the soil better, vs. it running off the side of the slope. There's a thread about them here: Soil Surfactants/Wetting Agents.

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by samjonester » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:33 am

@adgattoni thanks for the suggestion! I don't have a problem with moisture on the slope, it's got plenty of organic matter, and the bermuda is pretty think and healthy. Even during dry spells, it stays fairly green and doesn't needle up. I'm unirrigated, and I rarely drag hoses on the bermuda front lawn.

---

@Suburban Jungle Life That sounds like a solid plan. I suppose I can't really put off the soil test any longer. I have been spraying PGR, so I've liked how easy it is to mix in K4L with an application. I will continue to use the K4L extreme blend because as you mentioned kelp, humic, fulvic, and aminos seem pretty proven as a way to create a healthier plant under the soil. I was looking for something to add to that application for color that doesn't require me to constantly be applying nitrogen. I'd already switched from Milo to a cheaper coated 35-0-5 w/ iron since I feel that I'm feeding the soil and roots with a better product than milo by using the K4L.

Eventually, I'd like to replace it with TTTF, as I think I'm a bit too far north for the bermuda, and as you mention, the common isn't super dark to begin with. That's not going to happen too soon, though. I reno'd my backyard this year, and I'll likely do the side yard next year. Without a sprinkler system, I'm trying to bite off renovations in smaller sections.

Conclusion: Soil test to see the current state of affairs. Then actually using science to decide whether it's better to tank mix specific nutrients (SOP for the potassium, FAS for iron...) with the PGR, or whether it's more effective to just mix in the micro package from K4L.

P.S. thanks for the fungicide guide as well!
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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by Suburban Jungle Life » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:54 am

If you are already spraying PGR, add iron and AMS to it. You can get your N down along with your iron and PGR. You can also add in fungicide and herbicide if you wish. 1 spray with everything at once. FYI, some research has shown reduced efficacy of some herbicides when applied with humates (thought I read that somewhere). Not sure about the fungicides with humates though. Of course, do a jar test first to make sure it doesn't precipitate. The K4L extreme has N but I wonder if that's enough for bermuda. Add more N with AMS to the mix.

I am surprised you have bermuda in NJ. I'm not a big fan of bermuda though. I also feel I am a little cool for bermuda and I'm much farther south. Maybe consider zoysia if you want warm season? It looks a lot like KBG or a fine bladed TTTF and it is super cushy to walk on. You also don't ever need to overseed like TTTF. I think that would be a good substitute for bermuda and good for a steep slope. It also tends to out compete bermuda. Trying to rid TTTF of bermuda has me feeling a certain way about bermuda... I'd make 1 exception. As fast as it spreads, I would use it for golf, sports fields, and if you have kids/dogs tearing up the yard every day.

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by samjonester » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:24 am

the N in K4L extreme comes from the amino blend, and they state it helps with chelation, also maybe absorption. You're right though. at 10g powder / M, the amount of nitrogen is negligible as a fertilizer source. I was shared a link about types of fertilizers recently. AMS would be best in the early spring and late fall, but urea is cheaper when the weather is warmer.

I am surprised as well! I don't want a warm season lawn, but I just happened to inherit one when we bought the house last year. Many houses in my neighborhood have zoysia, and I do like it in the summer, but all of our warm season lawns take forever to green up. I'll be converting to TTTF when I finally pull the trigger. I likely won't include KBG in the TTTF like I did with my backyard.

Funny thing about NJ, though. My weather is pretty close to northern MD's weather. NJ has a few distinct weather zones: North Jersey with the mountains, the coast, and South Jersey. The bottom of the state (Cape May peninsula) actually has the same latitude as DC. I'm only about 70 miles north of that. I imagine my bermuda does almost as well as bermuda near you.
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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by Suburban Jungle Life » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:41 am

Got it. Well, when you do your reno, make sure to use every means necessary to kill that bermuda. I did a reno and after 4 apps of gly, I still had a few stragglers. I ran out of time and seeded anyway. I know I'll have to deal with it in the future now... Use "soul stealer"! That's probably your best bet and give yourself 2 months for constant apps.

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by Delmarva Keith » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:14 pm

Well to circle back I’m convinced Air-8 does something. I’m in overseed mode now and ground has been kept at capacity with irrigation. We’ve had gully washer thunderstorms interspersed with sunshine all day. I could see inches of standing water across my entire back lawn — worse than I’ve ever seen before likely due to the soil being saturated to begin with.

It’s already starting to drain with very little standing water remaining. In the past this would have taken a day or even two.

I did one round of it at label rate on 9/1. I was very skeptical but I have to admit that it definitely did something.

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by social port » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:11 am

@Delmarva Keith do you happen to remember your rate? The label rate ranges from 3-9 oz/k.
And, did you water it in immediately after application?

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by NeVs » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:47 am

social port wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:11 am
@Delmarva Keith do you happen to remember your rate? The label rate ranges from 3-9 oz/k.
And, did you water it in immediately after application?
Delmarva Keith wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:14 pm
I did one round of it at label rate on 9/1. I was very skeptical but I have to admit that it definitely did something.

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by jocoxVT » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:06 pm

social port wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:11 am
@Delmarva Keith do you happen to remember your rate? The label rate ranges from 3-9 oz/k.
And, did you water it in immediately after application?
Believe label rate of Air-8 is minimum 6oz/k. However, if he ran the "Compaction Cure" combo with RGS it suggest 6oz/k of RGS and 9oz/k Air-8. I believe it was Pauls Prime Cuts and Matt from the Grass Factor both have videos where they were running Air-8 at 9-12oz/k.

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by social port » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:31 pm

@jocoxVT you are correct; the minimum rate is 6, not 3. My mistake.
I’m still interested to know if people are getting better results using 6 vs 9. There may not be a difference. I’m just fishing.

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by Delmarva Keith » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:51 pm

social port wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:11 am
@Delmarva Keith do you happen to remember your rate? The label rate ranges from 3-9 oz/k.
And, did you water it in immediately after application?
Rate was full label rate (go big or go home lol) 9 oz per 1,000. Mixed it 4 gal at a time in a 5 gal pail. 4 gal water plus 36 oz Air-8 for each 4,000 sq ft. Into the backpack with a double nozzle wand and Bob’s your uncle. I used teejet turboteejet nozzles, 110 degree, 0.4 gpm, not that that would matter.

Did not water it in but there was a light rain the day of app and the day after so it didn’t sit there long.

I plan to continue using it. Might even spring for some RGS. Number one for me for any new product is does it do any harm to anything. It did not; in fact the grass seemed to like it. Number two is does it do what it says — anecdotally, yup. :thumbup:

We got a soaker last night — still awaiting the weather data to see exactly how many inches of rain overnight, but something around 4”, possibly more, in a short time. All the ground around here is already totally saturated from Thursday’s daytime deluges. Water rose in the street to leave a water line on my front retaining wall, like a couple of feet. I awoke this AM to see a lake in my backyard. It’s already all gone. Damn, would have had a private lake lol.
Last edited by Delmarva Keith on Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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