N-Ext Products

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JohnP
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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by JohnP » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:07 pm

Jconnelly6b wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:31 pm
I don't believe homeowners will be able to purchase the Carbon X directly, like we do for the GCF products. My understanding is Carbon X will only be sold in bulk (to distributors) and then we can purchase from them.

So each one of us has to hope our local landscape supply, whether it be Site-One or Gina's Garden Center decides to buy a pallet or two to see how it does.
I guess it depends what you define as a distributor. Currently it's only being sold in bulk but Matt has said on his live streams that homeowners will be able to purchase, but it's a thing coming in the spring. Have to wait to find out more.

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by thegrassfactor » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:10 pm

So to clear this up, Carbon X is currently on sale to professionals.

Starting in January, it will be available to homeowners as well. Both Pete and Allyn will distribute Carbon X as part of the GCF product line up.

Initially, it will be sold in 50lb bags until we can afford to build a second line in our plant to package it in smaller quantities.

The price per bag has not been determined yet as we're still trying to nail down all the logistics that go into moving individual bags vs tonnage. The goal is to keep the cost per pound of N comparable to other products on the online marketplace. We're having to negotiate with logistics companies based on forecasts which is tough to do since this is technically a "start up."

In select locations, Carbon X will be offered in independent garden centers, though those dates have not been confirmed.

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by NewLawnJon » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:16 pm

thegrassfactor wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:10 pm
So to clear this up, Carbon X is currently on sale to professionals.

Starting in January, it will be available to homeowners as well. Both Pete and Allyn will distribute Carbon X as part of the GCF product line up.

Initially, it will be sold in 50lb bags until we can afford to build a second line in our plant to package it in smaller quantities.

The price per bag has not been determined yet as we're still trying to nail down all the logistics that go into moving individual bags vs tonnage. The goal is to keep the cost per pound of N comparable to other products on the online marketplace. We're having to negotiate with logistics companies based on forecasts which is tough to do since this is technically a "start up."

In select locations, Carbon X will be offered in independent garden centers, though those dates have not been confirmed.
For most home owners I don't think that a 50 pound bag is a reasonable size. At 1lb N/M it would cover 12,500 square feet.

For my yard I am currently using about 200lbs of Milo, so about $60 per app, so I am guessing this will be able to compete on a price per app.

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by Ridgerunner » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:27 pm

...I am guessing this will be able to compete on a price per app.
...goal is to keep the cost per pound of N comparable to other products on the online marketplace
What are you paying on an N/M basis if you bought online? The goal is to be competitive with on line sales of other N products. Keep in mind in addition to the N and K content, this product has additional benefits byway of biochar and RGS (HA/FA and kelp) and is designed to reduce leaching of N. Thereby making the N application more efficient in delivery by keeping it in the root zone longer or so I hear :) (and the science tends to support this theory). :D
Last edited by Ridgerunner on Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by thegrassfactor » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:46 pm

NewLawnJon wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:16 pm
For most home owners I don't think that a 50 pound bag is a reasonable size. At 1lb N/M it would cover 12,500 square feet.

For my yard I am currently using about 200lbs of Milo, so about $60 per app, so I am guessing this will be able to compete on a price per app.
50lbs is probably not a reasonable size, but it's the best we can do with the start up money we have.

Because of the added abilities of biochar, we are not recommending a 1lb of N rate, outside of renovation/new construction/remediation.

We also don't have the ability to get into retail locations like milorganite, but we will try our best to compete on price.

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by ksturfguy » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:15 pm

50 LB bag would be sweet for my 20,000 property. Might not cover it all but close.

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by adgattoni » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:36 pm

thegrassfactor wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:46 pm
NewLawnJon wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:16 pm
For most home owners I don't think that a 50 pound bag is a reasonable size. At 1lb N/M it would cover 12,500 square feet.

For my yard I am currently using about 200lbs of Milo, so about $60 per app, so I am guessing this will be able to compete on a price per app.
50lbs is probably not a reasonable size, but it's the best we can do with the start up money we have.

Because of the added abilities of biochar, we are not recommending a 1lb of N rate, outside of renovation/new construction/remediation.

We also don't have the ability to get into retail locations like milorganite, but we will try our best to compete on price.
I wouldn't compete on price to get the milo fans. You've got a differentiated product with truly unique features. That's certainly worth a premium!

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by summithorn » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:54 pm

Matt,
I know the carbon-x is new slow-release tech and I am very interested in the product, but how many suggested applications per year and what release can we expect? 8- 16 weeks, 4 months, etc.?? I know it will release different where I live compared to TN. and I know the product will change soil conditions over time and that will also alter the way the product is applied.

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by samjonester » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:15 pm

What’s the recommended application rate? How far will a 50 lb bag go?

I assume that including biochar and teaming up with GCF to include RGS means lower rates of N per M per application. A lot of John’s marketing seems to focus on lower, more targeted, and more responsible rates of nitrogen. Carbon-X’s landing page mentions a higher efficiency for nutrients applied. Do suggested application rates for home owners reflect those things?
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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by ksturfguy » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:21 pm

samjonester wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:15 pm
What’s the recommended application rate? How far will a 50 lb bag go?

I assume that including biochar and teaming up with GCF to include RGS means lower rates of N per M per application. A lot of John’s marketing seems to focus on lower, more targeted, and more responsible rates of nitrogen. Carbon-X’s landing page mentions a higher efficiency for nutrients applied. Do suggested application rates for home owners reflect those things?
IF you click on the link you posted it says a 50lb bag will cover 22,000 sqft. Also suggested rate for High is .8 LBs of N per 1000, Med is .6 LBS of N per 1000 and Low is .4 LBS of N per 1000.

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by jocoxVT » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:24 pm

samjonester wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:15 pm
What’s the recommended application rate? How far will a 50 lb bag go?
They list recommended rates on the mid webpage. They give three suggestions of 0.8, 0.6 or 0.4lb N/M

http://www.greenecountyfert.com/wp-cont ... FertCo.pdf
Last edited by jocoxVT on Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by summithorn » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:39 pm

Yes, it does list rates but how often? 4 times per growing season? Once a month? That will also have an impact on the price. Coated Urea is good but the release is unpredictable. I can do a Long-term product ( all summer release )but with heat and rain, it may be gone after two months. I believe Milo is suggested at 4 applications per year.

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by samjonester » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:45 pm

Thanks, @ksturfguy & @jocoxVT. I did see that range listed, but didn't take it as high, medium, and low. I understand it's probably hard to give a blanket recommendation because situations vary widely, but that's a 2x window between low and high, and I assumed it was to give guidelines to pros, who will make more situational decisions.

To contrast, Milorganite gives .72lb N/M as a suggested rate for consumers. People then seem to interpret that rate as "because it's on the bag that must be the conservative low rate". I typically use somewhere around there as a max rate regardless of the fertilizer I'm applying, but I'm still new to this stuff and working on a single lawn. I don't have a lot of comparative data points to inform my decision.

I'm also wondering if @thegrassfactor will use "Carbon-X for the homeowner" as an avenue to promote similar cultural practices to what John talks about, and encourages with the suggested rates of 18-0-1 Green Punch, which is ~.25 lb N/M.

That's also a good point @summithorn, though Milo's 4x per year calendar is really just a marketing mnemonic device to get them into your heads throughout the year...
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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by thegrassfactor » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:01 pm

summithorn wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:54 pm
Matt,
I know the carbon-x is new slow-release tech and I am very interested in the product, but how many suggested applications per year and what release can we expect? 8- 16 weeks, 4 months, etc.?? I know it will release different where I live compared to TN. and I know the product will change soil conditions over time and that will also alter the way the product is applied.
We are looking at 8-10 weeks depending on growing conditions.

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by NewLawnJon » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:07 pm

Some of us have been taught to “Throw er down and hope for the best”. 😂

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by thegrassfactor » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:10 pm

samjonester wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:15 pm
What’s the recommended application rate? How far will a 50 lb bag go?

I assume that including biochar and teaming up with GCF to include RGS means lower rates of N per M per application. A lot of John’s marketing seems to focus on lower, more targeted, and more responsible rates of nitrogen. Carbon-X’s landing page mentions a higher efficiency for nutrients applied. Do suggested application rates for home owners reflect those things?
It depends on what you're doing. Is your lawn in good shape and trying to maintain? Low rate. Establishment/renovating? High rate. Recovery, grow in, "winterizing" - Med rate.

Yes, John focused on higher efficiency liquid uptake. Yes, the product is designed to work alongside the GCF liquid program. Not everyone feels comfortable spraying, not everyone feels comfortable spreading. We felt like char was the best material we could use in a granular since we don't have the advantage of foliar uptake.

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by ksturfguy » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:29 pm

Depending on the price, I hope to give it a shot. Also considering buying some of the other GCF products. I definitely think the theory behind all of this is intriguing. It's kind of surprising there is such limited research on the soil conditioning products and how much if any they actually help. Have read mixed things for sure. Some publications say they won't hurt anything but no real evidence they improve turf quality and other publications say they are very beneficial. To me it definitely makes sense that if you can improve the conditions of the soil that the turf is growing in then you should have healthier turf.

I checked with K-State University and they really haven't tested them yet. They did do a test on Humic Acid a few years ago to see if it helped with drought resistance but he said the year they did the test they got above average rainfall that summer and saw no difference between area with Humic and area without. Have reached out to other universities in area to get their opinions on some of these products but never heard back.

Just really hard for me to get on the Milorganite bandwagon. As someone with a bigger yard, it would just be so much more expensive for me to buy compared to my normal fertilizers.
Last edited by ksturfguy on Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by thegrassfactor » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:37 pm

samjonester wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:45 pm

I'm also wondering if @thegrassfactor will use "Carbon-X for the homeowner" as an avenue to promote similar cultural practices to what John talks about, and encourages with the suggested rates of 18-0-1 Green Punch, which is ~.25 lb N/M.
Yes, the mission in mind is a foundational ground up approach to lawn care. John's focus is reduced inputs. He teaches clearly and designs programs with that focus. He's an expert at that. I focus more on the chemistry and synergy between the inputs, surfactants, and binders. For instance, Carbon-X has a pH of 7, even with all the ammonium sulfate. That was important to me. We both share environmental goals as well - minimize our footprint, both in lawn care and manufacturing. I think the goal is to focus on our individual passions/strengths and find the synergy among them. He's a visionary. I like to mix beakers.

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by osuturfman » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:38 pm

To the point that a 50 lb bag is not economical or ideal for a homeowner, you have to understand that Carbon X is really about a yearS long approach to building the soil N bank into a well-oiled machine. That 50 lb bag might be around 2-3 years for someone with a small lawn but, it will take at least that type of commitment to see the true benefit of the product. There will essentially be three "Ah Ha" moments when it comes to people who make this a big part of their overall program:

1.) Initial - You're going to see things pop, even at the low rate, from the Ammonium Sulfate and Ferrous Sulfate. Flat out, it will make grass look better.

2.) Mid Year 2 - Grass has been looking good for the past year, comes out of Year 2 spring charging hard and ready for a tough summer. You make it through to July/August and are impressed at the resiliency of the grasses ability to withstand extremes. This is the RGS and Composted Poultry Manure doing their jobs to provide the plant and soil with the right balance of growth hormones (see RGS) and steady N supply (see CPM).

3.) Mid Year 3 - You're realizing you can stretch your interval between apps a little longer, lower rates incrementally, and get through and come out of stress periods more predictably. This is the biochar, in concert with the other derivatives, driving the whole soil/grass system to a very high level of efficiency.

A 50 lb bag is just an initial commitment to staying the course over a period of yearS to experience all of these moments because they will happen. I know because I've used a very similar, and much more labor-intensive, approach to what @thegrassfactor has put into one bag. It will work and you'll be amazed if you commit.

Sounds like a hard sell but, I'm just speaking from experience.

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Re: N-Ext Products

Post by thegrassfactor » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:42 pm

ksturfguy wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:29 pm
Depending on the price, I hope to give it a shot. Also considering buying some of the other GCF products. I definitely think the theory behind all of this is intriguing. It's kind of surprising there is such limited research on the soil conditioning products and how much if any they actually help. Have read mixed things for sure. Some publications say they won't hurt anything but no real evidence they improve turf quality and other publications say they are very beneficial. To me it definitely makes sense that if you can improve the conditions of the soil that the turf is growing in then you should have healthier turf.

I checked with K-State University and they really haven't tested them yet. They did do a test on Humic Acid a few years ago to see if it helped with drought resistance but he said the year they did the test they got above average rainfall that summer and saw no difference between area with Humic and area without. Have reached out to other universities in area to get their opinions on some of these products but never heard back.

Just really hard for me to get on the Milorganite bandwagon. As someone with a bigger yard, it would just be so much more expensive for me to buy compared to my normal fertilizers.
http://mogic.org/wp-content/uploads/pag ... ervin.pptx

The goal is building soil organic carbon/humus layer.

The PowerPoint cited demonstrates the products with greatest efficacy.
Last edited by thegrassfactor on Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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