Reducing Transpiration With Chitosan

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Re: Reducing Transpiration With Chitosan

Post by Grass Clippins » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:03 pm

@Rig2 Heck yeah brother, sounds like we're running the same experiment. I 100% promise you that GCI Natural Adjuvant is OII-YS, which is a chitosan laced yucca surfactant. The problem is that OII-YS is unregulated so it's difficult to figure out the exact percentages. I think I found a work around for that... Thankfully the Washington State University Study said that 1g/liter was the sweet spot, any more was ineffective. My theory is that OII-YS adds the yucca surfactant to cut down on the cost, and I'm sure it helps with marketing. Not sure if you notice but the chitosan is more expensive than the yucca extract and they do a lot of the same thing.

I'm still trying to figure out which acid to use and what it does. I was thinking that lactic acid was used to help dissolve the chitosan, but maybe it's used to activate it. Google says that the ph of lactic acid is 2.4.This person appears to be asking the same question but I don't understand the answer they get.

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Re: Reducing Transpiration With Chitosan

Post by Rig2 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:49 pm

I don’t really know what acid to use either. All the studies I read refer to latic acid. One study used like 15 different acids but mainly talked about the lactic acid test results. In that study they did have the grapes in just the 5.6 ph water and it did not control or prevent the mold. But no study ever referred to using only chitosan without an acidic solution as a control.

I am no scientist and don’t really comprehend the deep information in these studies. I just see things that are common among them all. A lot of the studies I looked at are on food or food plants. And reading on latic acid on the Wikipedia, it states that latic acid is an approved food additive. It is also way cheap and easy to get food grade sterile lactic acid from my googling around. So I assume that the studies use lactic acid because of this. Maybe all the universities and study sites have an over abundance of lactic acid from other departments studies?

From what I gather, chitosan mainly from crab and shrimp shells doesn’t dissolve in water by itself. When used by itself it is mainly used as a natural flocculant. Powdered Chitosan needs an acidic solution for it to become water soluble and using lactic acid is the most common. A lot of the studies I read don’t say why they use lactic acid. Maybe when it was first starting to be researched in the late 80s they used it because it works and is food approved?

Not sure if the acid activates it or it just needs to be dissolved to a molecular level so it can absorbed by the plants. All I understand is that it is always used in an ph area of ph5 or ph5.5

The OII-YS adjuvant might use citric acid because it is even cheaper than lactic acid. When you are charging through the roof for your product and you need an activaor, it can’t be expensive also!

I can’t find a reason why all the studies lactic acid? I Feel acid is acid. But I wouldn’t drink diluted muriatic acid but I do chug orange juice and lemon water. So on the scientific level it may matter. I guess if we are throwing it down on grass it shouldn’t really matter.

Since both are so cheap I am going to make my home brews with both acids. Now I just need to grow the grass and wait for the ordered ingredients. I am going to get the grow lights down tomorrow and start on the grass. Haven’t been this excited to grow grass indoors since I grew “medicinal grass.”

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Re: Reducing Transpiration With Chitosan

Post by craigdt » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:57 pm

So a potential recipe would look like this:

In sprayer, add 1 gallon water per 1K sq ft.
Add enough citric acid to bring the water to 3.5-5.5 pH
Add Chitosan powder: 3.8 gram/1K Sq ft
Add Yucca powder: 1 gram/1K Sq ft (Liquid yucca: .20oz)

"Apply just prior to the onset of stress conditions and repeat every 14 - 28 days"

Is that pretty close to what everyone thinks from looking at the various sources?
I chose citric acid, because it seems cheap and readily available. I think the key is just to get the pH to the proper level.

Another question I have is:
Could one mix a concentrate of chitosan, yucca extract, and water and store it until needed, then activate it with the proper pH?
Certainly seems what the expensive, premixed products are...
Last edited by craigdt on Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reducing Transpiration With Chitosan

Post by Scagfreedom48z+ » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:02 pm

If you watch GCI turf videos, Citric acid is used to drop the PH below 5 in order for the natural adjuvant to work effectively.

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Re: Reducing Transpiration With Chitosan

Post by Grass Clippins » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:13 pm

Alright....I'm a man on a mission.

We're not able to find an analysis on the OII-YS, Oasis or GCI Natural Adjuvant but I was able to find one for SBC Oasis. SBC Oasis was made by Soil Basics, but I don't see it on their website anymore. Chances are that if it's not the same as OII-YS, then it extremely close. Analysis states:

Yucca Plant Extract & Chitosan..................................8%
Constituents ineffective as spray adjuvants...92%

*According to the Plant Food Company Omega Label, the weight is 9 pounds per gallon and the high end application rate of 1.46 fluid ounce per 1,000 square feet. We'll go with the high rate so that it's easier to figure out how much water to use, which is 2 gallons per 1,000 square feet, according to the Omega Label.

9 fluid lbs / 128 fluid oz = .0703125 fluid lbs/fluid oz
.0703125 fluid lbs per fluid oz * 8% = .005625 fluid lbs per fluid oz
.005625 fluid lbs per fluid oz * 1.46 ounce per 1,000 square foot application rate = .0082125 fluid lbs per fluid oz
.0082125 fluid lbs = .1314 fluid oz = 3.3113 grams

Please check my math but I believe that means we have 3.3113 grams of yucca plant extract & chitosan going down every 1,000 square feet. But how much of that is yucca extract and how much is chitosan?

Remember that the study stated they had best results with 1 gram of chitosan mixed with 1 litter of water. The Omega label says to apply 1.46 oz of Omega with 2 gallons of water per 1,000 square foot. 2 gallons of water equals 7.57 liters of water, which would equal 7.57 grams of Ebay Chitosan (this doesn't include yucca extract). 2 gallons of water per 1,000 square feet seems a little excessive for a foliar application so if we back it down to 1 gallon of water per 1,000 square feet that would equal 3.79 liters of water, which would equal 3.79 grams of Ebay Chitosan. Keep in mind that I ran the numbers based on the Omega foliar high rate.

Adding an Ebay Yucca Extract Surfactant may allow use to use less than 3.79 grams of Ebay Chitosan while yielding the same results. I think if we fiddle with that we might get somewhere.

For example would using 3.79 grams of Ebay Chitosan per 1,000 square foot be the same as running 1.89 grams of Ebay Chitosan with 1.89 grams of Ebay Yucca Extract Surfactant? This would reduce the cost even further and mimic OII-YS.

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Re: Reducing Transpiration With Chitosan

Post by Grass Clippins » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:41 pm

@Rig2 I'm pretty sure you're right about acids. They both do the same thing but a packet of powder is easier to use than a dropper of lactic acid. I might lean towards lactic acid just to feel like a scientist. I'm glad to hear it dissolves in water and I am on board with believing the ph has to be lower to activate the magic. I wasn't kidding about going to the hydro forums to get chitosan tips...some of those dope growers are brilliant.

@craigdt :lol: How in the world did we come up with numbers so close? 3.79 vs 3.80! You must have rounded up. My 3.79 number was if I ran straight chitosan, no yucca. As far as storing goes I think you want to use it pretty quickly. I remember seeing a chitosan acetate on the Vanson website that states:

"ChitoVan CA is a clear viscous solution that is very stable (18-month or greater shelf life) in comparison to other flocculents that may degrade rapidly."

This stuff must be special and last longer premixed but the not-so-special stuff "degrades quickly".

@Scagfreedom48z+ I went back and watched it again, thank you. I also noticed that advice on the OII-YS, Omega and SBC Oasis labels. All said 5.5 or lower.

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Re: Reducing Transpiration With Chitosan

Post by Rig2 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:15 pm

I am thinking of using the the potential recipe @craigdt put up as one test brew. That would be the control brew since that is what most seems is in the OII-YS.

Another was going to be
5g chitosan
5g yucca
Acid-
One brew with latic and one with citric

Was going to do
1 5g yucca only

1 5g chitosan w/latic only

And one grass only with no adjuvant

I am going a little heavy on both products because I am going to use spray bottles. Not sure how well the spray mist will cover the test grass. Need to test that and may adjust accordingly.

I just need to decide on the size of the test grass and planter pots. Will be on tall fescue grass.
I was thinking of 8” or 10” round pots. If my indoor grass doesn’t grow too well before June I can just poach a section of grass from my yard. I want to do the test in pots so I can control the stress evenly on the grass.

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Re: Reducing Transpiration With Chitosan

Post by Rig2 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:43 pm

@Grass Clippins when I searched for the O2YS msds it came up with the same 8% yucca and chitosan and 92% ineffective spray adjuvant. On the label it states 1-4 pints for minimum 20 gallons then 1-4 pints per acre. Not sure on the weights though.

I do know on food ingredients labels the ingredients are labels from most to least. The O2YS has yucca first and chitosan second. So it may be a 5% yucca 3% chitosan if they follow FDA regulation. Not sure how well overpriced adjuvant is regulated.

The math you did looks good to me but my mathematics and scientifics are on the same low levels. When you broke it down to those measurements they are really stiffing us on the pricing now that we know what the price of the ingredients are.

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Re: Reducing Transpiration With Chitosan

Post by craigdt » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:17 pm

Anybody else get their supplies ready?

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Re: Reducing Transpiration With Chitosan

Post by Grass Clippins » Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:24 am

@craigdt Nice! My Chitosan left New Delhi on the 12th and arrived in Frankford, Germany on the 17th...who knows when it will make it to me. Where did you get the Yucca?

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Re: Reducing Transpiration With Chitosan

Post by Grass Clippins » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:00 am

@craigdt I may bite the bullet and get a pound of Yuca from Kelp4Less. It's considerably more expensive than other extracts but it's still cheap for what you get, 7 cents/#ft2 vs. 40 cents/#ft2. Found this video on Yucca. When I called I actually spoke to this guy, they definitely sell to the connoisseur but at least you know what you're getting. As we suspected it looks like the Yucca pulls in the moisture and the Chitosan shuts the door so it cannot escape.


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Re: Reducing Transpiration With Chitosan

Post by j4c11 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:21 am

Hold on boys. The growth chamber study says : "Average air temperature was 20◦C (that's 68F), relative humidity 61%" . Mind you, pepper plats are tropical and can withstand and thrive in high temps. Significantly reducing a cool season grass' ability to cool itself in 90+ degree weather is a totally different ballgame I would think.

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Re: Reducing Transpiration With Chitosan

Post by Grass Clippins » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:12 pm

@j4c11 Yeah... I wish there was a better study to pull from but it’s an inexpensive thing to test and worth it in my opinion. With Fescue in GA we’re looking at almost certain death unless you want to run the water bill up. And IF it works it will help a lot of people from getting “Denny’d“ into buying OII-YS. I plan to only test it when the temps go way up.

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Re: Reducing Transpiration With Chitosan

Post by craigdt » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:20 pm

j4c11 wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:21 am
Hold on boys. The growth chamber study says : "Average air temperature was 20◦C (that's 68F), relative humidity 61%" . Mind you, pepper plats are tropical and can withstand and thrive in high temps. Significantly reducing a cool season grass' ability to cool itself in 90+ degree weather is a totally different ballgame I would think.
Just to clarify, you are basically saying the chitosan cocktail is facing more difficult conditions, and therefore results might not be as impressive as results in the study?
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Re: Reducing Transpiration With Chitosan

Post by Grass Clippins » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:36 pm

craigdt wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:20 pm
j4c11 wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:21 am
Hold on boys. The growth chamber study says : "Average air temperature was 20◦C (that's 68F), relative humidity 61%" . Mind you, pepper plats are tropical and can withstand and thrive in high temps. Significantly reducing a cool season grass' ability to cool itself in 90+ degree weather is a totally different ballgame I would think.
Just to clarify, you are basically saying the chitosan cocktail is facing more difficult conditions, and therefore results might not be as impressive as results in the study?
I went back and looked over it again...there was a growth-chamber study and a field study. The average temp for the growth-chamber was 68F. For some reason they didn't list or I overlooked the temperature for the field study, plants were moved outside on June 20, 1998. According to weather underground the temps for Pullman Washington in 1998 were as follows:

June Max Temp 86F
July Max Temp 99F
August Max Temp 100F
September Max Temp 96F

It was during the 84-day of the field study that the chitosan-treated plants used 43% less water than the control plants. The chamber-study chitosan treated plants used 26% less water than the control plant.

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Re: Reducing Transpiration With Chitosan

Post by GA_Fescue_Man » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:31 pm

Just wanted to put this here. Found an article on the basic operation of the stomata in turfgrass.

https://www.golfdom.com/understanding-t ... f-stomata/

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Re: Reducing Transpiration With Chitosan

Post by Rig2 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:36 am

I haven’t received any chitosan yet but I did get the yucca (wet Betty) powder. Going to the hippie store to source the acids locally. I did get my test grass planted in pots. It’s only been six days and am starting to see green shoot ups. Now it’s just a waiting game.

Image

Been reading up on how the stomata works. Seems like it’s either full open and loss of transpiration or closed in a state of shock/ dormancy. Hopefully the chitosan will make it slightly closed to reduce the water transpiration loss but keep it open enough for it it process CO2 to keep up the photosynthesis action up.

I have eight pots going so I I have a few options of what to use and how much stress I can put on them. Can’t wait for the rain to leave and the stress of summer to show up.

Thanks @GA_Fescue_Man for that article. It sent me in a direction about what we are trying to control. I was only looking at the chitosan studies and not what we are trying manipulate.

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Re: Reducing Transpiration With Chitosan

Post by Grass Clippins » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:10 am

GA_Fescue_Man wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:31 pm
Just wanted to put this here. Found an article on the basic operation of the stomata in turfgrass.

https://www.golfdom.com/understanding-t ... f-stomata/
That's a good article, I like the car analogy.

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Re: Reducing Transpiration With Chitosan

Post by Grass Clippins » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:21 am

@Rig2 I like it. Looks like you are doing a "The Chamber-Study" with the grow lights and controlled environment. I'm excited to see what Yucca does alone vs what chitosan does alone. I think that the OII-YS claims of better uptake are accredited to the yucca while the claims of reducing transpiration are accredited to the chitosan. I may add yucca only to all my application (no effect on stomata) and then do yucca and chitosan in July August and September to shut her down. I just tracked my chitosan and it's at JFK in NY.

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Re: Reducing Transpiration With Chitosan

Post by Rig2 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:06 pm

@Grass Clippins I am going to punish these mini patches to see what each one does and what they do together.

I have been looking into the yucca and what it does. Haven’t really been able to find any concrete studies on grass or plants. Just a lot of what the yucca claims to do. Some claim its a natural non-ionic surfactant. Others claim that since the plant survives drought by retaining moisture on the regular, you grind it up and put it on another plant it will absorb those qualities. All my searches lead to information posted by sellers. Seems kinda biased but you need to sell, I get it. No real negatives to it though. Since it is so cheap and I got a pound of it, I am going to throw it in every time I liquid spray.

Totally agree with you on which product does what. Hopefully all our test show similar results. Then we all can refine the cocktail mixture and have a legit recipe.

Mostly I just want to expose what a ripoff the OY2S is, and the ones who peddle it marked up so high.

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