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Bermuda control options in TTTF

89K views 246 replies 39 participants last post by  PlanetBeen  
#1 ·
I keep seeing posts asking how to control bermudagrass in a turf type tall fescue lawn so I thought I would write a post summarizing the research I have found on this topic. I have a tall fescue lawn and my neighbor has bermudagrass so intrusion over the last 5 years has hit a tipping point. There has been much research at universities that specialize in turfgrass sciences on this topic. The amount of the spread and aggressiveness of the approach dictates your path to control. The best approaches rely on multiple types of herbicides to attack multiple biological systems (see herbicide classes below), because bermudagrass is very resilient and at its peak growing season resistant to even the best selective herbicides. Controlling bermudagrass is a systemic approach of starving it of nutrients through lack of fertilizer and selective herbicide assault. Hopefully you find this useful.

Just for reference, I am in Nashville, TN which is zone 7a in the transition zone so adjust the timing of applications and overseeding according to your area.

Abbreviations used are acre (A), fluid ounce (oz), milliliter (mL), non-ionic surfactant (NIS), methylated seed oil (MSO), crop oil concentrate (COC) and 1000 sq. ft. (M). Small volumes in ounces are best converted to milliliters and measured using a syringe you can get from a pharmacy or buy a box of them on Amazon.

Glyphosate

If the Bermudagrass is contained to a few well-defined areas, then the non-selective herbicide glyphosate can be used. Glyphosate or glyphosate + fluazifop are the most economical options. An article in Turfgrass Trends by the University of Arkansas (https://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/tgtre/article/2001aug1a.pdf) outlines the treatment plan.

  • Apply Roundup Pro (higher concentration glyphosate) at 2 quarts/A (1.5 oz/M) or Roundup Pro + fluazifop at 24 oz/A (0.6 oz/M) to actively growing Bermudagrass.

  • The important part is 3 applications, 30-60 days apart (as the Bermudagrass greens up). Any fewer applications is not effective. Spraying brown Bermudagrass is useless as it must be actively growing for these herbicides to work so do not apply the next app until the Bermuda is greening up and regrowing.

  • Wait 2 weeks before seeding.

  • The following spring spot spray any remaining Bermudagrass.

Selective Herbicides & Overseeding
The next 2 options are for larger areas where the Bermudagrass is intermixed with the fescue. Two selective herbicides are available, the less expensive option fluazifop and the more expensive, but more potent and less toxic to fescue option, topramezone. In both instances overseeding (aka. interseeding) significantly aids in successful eradication (https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...actylon-control-with-topramezone-and-triclopyr/DEC0FAE8150934D42D6EA6E20173A9E0), see below for more discussion on this.

Fluazifop/Fenoxaprop

The University of Tennessee recommends the following regimen for controlling Bermudagrass in fescue using fluazifop (https://extension.tennessee.edu/Sul...-1294e9e2e95b&RootFolder=%2FSullivan%2FDocuments%2FAg%20Documents&CurrentPage=1):

  • Apply Fusilade II at 6 oz/A (0.14 oz/M) + triclopyr at 32 oz/A (0.73 oz/M) + NIS starting when the Bermudagrass is green and actively growing (mid-May). Do not apply fluazifop when the fescue is under stress (i.e. heat, drought).

  • Apply every 28 days until August 15th

  • Wait 15 days before overseeding or 30 days if bare soil, then overseed.

  • Fertilize at 1 lb. N/M in September 15, November 1 and March 1 to support fescue growth. Do not fertilize after April 1 and before September 1 in order to stress the Bermudagrass. This aids in Bermudagrass suppression because it limits the storage of up nutrients prior to summer and in the fall as it tries to store carbohydrates for winter.

This regimen must be continued for 2-3 years.

See Application Timing below for new data on suggested application timing.

Fenoxaprop can be used as it is less toxic to tall fescue, but it is less effective than Pylex even when combined with overseeding (https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...actylon-control-with-topramezone-and-triclopyr/DEC0FAE8150934D42D6EA6E20173A9E0).

Topramezone

This herbicide was created to control grassy weeds (i.e. Bermudagrass) in cool season grasses. In correspondence with BASF, their technical team recommends the following application plan:

  • Mid-August - 1.5 oz/A (0.034 oz or 1.0 mL /M) Pylex + 32 oz/A (0.73 oz or 21.5 mL /M) triclopyr + MSO or COC

  • Early-Mid September (21 days from previous app) - 1.5 oz/A (0.034 oz or 1.0 mL /M) Pylex + 32 oz/A (0.73 oz or 21.5 mL /M) triclopyr + MSO or COC

  • Early October (21 days from previous app) - 1.0 oz/A (0.023 oz or 0.7 mL /M) Pylex (no triclopyr) + MSO or COC + overseeding. Seeding can occur immediately. According to the article posted above this is a critical step.

BASF stated you can move the initial application timeline up to mid-July and proceed from there, but see the Application Timing section below for new data on suggested application timing and why it may not a good idea to move the timing up to July. Any time sooner than mid-July and the Bermudagrass has the ability to grow through the Pylex inhibition.

The program should be administered for 2 years, but substantial suppression should occur in the first year.

Since mesotrione is in the same herbicide class as topramezone, what about adding it to the mix? Virginia Tech has an article on using mesotrione and triclopyr to control Bermudagrass (https://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/golfd/article/2008mar80.pdf). According to this study fenoxaprop + triclopyr is more effective than mesotione + triclopyr. This added to the fact and that topramezone is more effective than mesotrione, it is probably not worth using mesotrione for this purpose as it would cost more than Pylex. Additionally the rates used in this study exceed the annual maximum application rate for mesotrione.

Even though it is expensive, Pylex is more cost effective than mesotrione or fenoxaprop given its effectiveness and amount used per application. If price is an issue, then fluazifop is the next best approach. Just remember that overseeding is a key factor to success when using either selective herbicide.

Research on Application and Overseeding Timing
Research in 2013 from the University of Tennessee suggests that applications in mid-late April and early September/October seem to have the most effect in suppression (https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...ssion-with-mixtures-of-fluazifop-and-triclopyr/6117FB8602336EB8FEAF3A84C3392DDB). This study suggests that an application in April when Bermudagrass is first coming out of dormancy impairs its ability to quickly recover in time for its prime growing season and applications in fall, as the temp drops below 72F, inhibit its ability to store energy to survive winter, which really stresses the Bermudagrass. You would just need to be sure to leave enough time in the fall for your overseeding to be established prior to winter.

If you want to geek out you can determine the Growing Degree Days (GDD) for your area like they used in the paper above. GDD is a temperature-based indicator for assessing crop development. It is a calculation used by crop producers that is a measure of heat accumulation used to predict plant and pest development rates such as the date that a crop reaches maturity. Growing degrees (GDs) is defined as the mean daily temperature (average of daily maximum and minimum temperatures) above a certain threshold base temperature accumulated on a daily basis over a period of time. The base threshold temperature is that temperature below which plant growth is zero. For cool season grasses that temperature is 50F or 10C. The Syngenta website (https://www.greencastonline.com/growing-degree-days/home) has a calculator for this (you can look up the equation online if you are interested). You should select 10C as the Base Temperature in order to match that of the paper and the germination temp of cool season grasses. The days that had the most inhibition in that paper were GDD10C of 200 and 2550 with 1775 also being significant.

In the study, GDD10C days fell on 4/22/2009 & 4/28/2010 (200), 8/24/2009 & 8/11/2010 (1775) and 11/5/2009 & 9/9/2010 (2250). Using 2019 data for my area these days roughly fell on 4/21/2019 (200), 8/9/2019 (1775) and 9/24/2019 (2250). For 2020 those dates are 4/11/2020 (200) and the 1775 and 2550 GDD10C have not yet occurred, but my application timing will roughly coincide with these dates.

My Hybrid Approach

I chose to use a hybrid of these approaches to maximally stress the Bermudagrass and minimize its spread during to summer. I applied fluazifop + triclopyr in early May (I did get my chemicals in time for a late April application) and June, did/will not fertilize May-August and will apply Pylex in the fall as well as overseed. UPDATE: I applied Pylex+triclpyr on 8/5.

By late June the Bermudagrass (and other grassy weeds) were completely yellow, but came back in early July. This robbed it of an entire month of growth so hopefully that inhibited its spread over that month. I will not know the success of this approach until late fall and spring of next year.

Herbicide Background

A quick background on the herbicides follows. A good summary chart can be found here (https://weedscience.missouri.edu/publications/2017_Updated_ClassificationPoster.pdf).

Lipid synthesis inhibitors:

  • fluazifop (tradenames: Ornamec Over the Top, Fusilade II)
  • fenoxaprop (tradename: Acclaim Extra)

Growth regulators:

  • triclopyr (tradenames: Turflon Ester, Triclopyr 4)
  • As an aside, most 3-way herbicides (2,4-D, MCPA, dicamba) and quinclorac are in this class. Sulfentrazone and carfentrazone are not and are cell membrane disruptors.

Amino Acid Synthesis Inhibitor: glyphosate (tradenames: RoundUp, RoundUp Pro)

Pigment inhibitors:

  • mesotrione (tradenames: Tenacity, Meso 4SC)

  • topramezone (tradename: Pylex)
 
#4 ·
Thank you docv, :thumbup: as luck would have me finding your post right now, I have 4oz of Pylex and a jug o' MSO on its way to me (already have the Triclopyr on hand) and

Thank you also g-man - has you not taken your action as moderator I'd likely never have found this valuable post and information! :thumbup:
 
#5 ·
Thank you DocV! This thread is exactly what I was looking for today. I'm going with the fluazifop approach sense I already have Ornamec and Pylex would eat up my seed budget. I'm also in TN, between Memphis and Nashville. When is the latest you would overseed? I may only have time to do two applications before seeding Sep 15th, unless I can wait a seed later.
 
#7 ·
@Nickfundy, cool-season grass seed germinates best when soil temperatures are between 50°F and 65°F. This roughly corresponds to daytime air temperatures in the 60°F to 75°F range. The soil temps in middle TN are on average are above 60F until the 3rd week in October so I would not seed/overseed later than mid-October.

Checking the label for fluazifop and triclopyr, you cannot seed for 14 days after fluazifop application and 21 days for triclopyr. This means you could probably apply your last application of fluazifop as late as the last week in Aug or the first week in Sept and still overseed by early Oct. You could even apply only fluazifop for your last application and cut a week off your waiting time. Remember to get good seed to soil contact by using a roller or top dressing. I plan to have my landscaping service use a roller.
 
#9 ·
DocV said:
Checking the label for fluazifop and triclopyr, you cannot seed for 14 days after fluazifop application and 21 days for triclopyr. This means you could probably apply your last application of fluazifop as late as the last week in Aug or the first week in Sept and still overseed by early Oct. You could even apply only fluazifop for your last application and cut a week off your waiting time. Remember to get good seed to soil contact by using a roller or top dressing. I plan to have my landscaping service use a roller.
This is the spot I am in, I have some Bermuda that I have been painting with glyphosate but also have fusilade + ester but want to reseed ASAP. Maybe just easier to glyphoste the Bermuda and then just reseed those areas vs trying to rely on fusilade + esther and having to wait 3 weeks.
 
#10 ·
The University of Alabama found that at least 3 applications of RoundUp Pro are needed to kill Bermuda and control is greatly enhanced by adding fluazifop (see my post above for link), but that would require a 2 week wait time for reseed. Personally you have some time so you could treat with fluazifop + triclopyr then 21 days later repeat and 21 days later use spot treatments of RoundUp + fluazifop wait 2 weeks and overseed.
 
#12 ·
The latest I would seed in TN would be the first week in October, but if you wanted to be careful mid-September. Historically soil temps do not drop below 50F until the first week in November. You can find soil temps here: https://www.greencastonline.com/tools/soil-temperature. Just search for temps for last year. TTTF will germinate from 50-65F (air temp 60-75F).
 
#14 ·
Hey @DocV, thank you for all of your valuable insight into Bermuda control options! I'm going to be doing a TTTF overseed in mid-September and have a question.

I did my first application of Pylex/Triclopyr/MSO on 8/1 and will continue with the two follow up apps(minus Triclopyr on the last) on the sections of my yard that have Bermuda, but I am also going to be dethatching with my sun joe and most likely the scarify attachment prior to the overseed.

I understand that cutting the rhizomes can cause Bermuda to spread even more, but would I be safe doing this after the chemicals apps? Or should I just avoid dethatching those areas even though there is a good amount of thatch built up?

Thanks!
 
#15 ·
DocV said:
The latest I would seed in TN would be the first week in October, but if you wanted to be careful mid-September. Historically soil temps do not drop below 50F until the first week in November. You can find soil temps here: https://www.greencastonline.com/tools/soil-temperature. Just search for temps for last year. TTTF will germinate from 50-65F (air temp 60-75F).
I am just east of you in MD and I did end up reseeding late into fall (after full reno first week of August) last year and had good results. Just don't know that I want to wait that long. I just had irrigation installed and have some areas that I could reseed earlier than the spots that have Bermuda which is maybe 5% of my lawn. What to do, what to do...
 
#16 ·
That is a good question so I compared the labels of Pylex, triclopyr and mesotrione. The weeds/grasses covered by Pylex (34/50) and triclopyr (1/50) is 35 of the 50 types addressed with mesotrione which is not surprising since mesotrione and topramezone (Pylex) are in the same herbicide class that being HPPD inhibitors. You can combine Pylex and mesotrione or probably better just save your mesotrione and add a 3-way herbicide to the Pylex + triclopyr mix which is allowable per the Pylex label.

I highly recommend everyone read the label for their products because there is a plethora of useful information in them.
 
#17 ·
edixon88 said:
Hey @DocV, thank you for all of your valuable insight into Bermuda control options! I'm going to be doing a TTTF overseed in mid-September and have a question.

I did my first application of Pylex/Triclopyr/MSO on 8/1 and will continue with the two follow up apps(minus Triclopyr on the last) on the sections of my yard that have Bermuda, but I am also going to be dethatching with my sun joe and most likely the scarify attachment prior to the overseed.

I understand that cutting the rhizomes can cause Bermuda to spread even more, but would I be safe doing this after the chemicals apps? Or should I just avoid dethatching those areas even though there is a good amount of thatch built up?

Thanks!
Personally I would not scarify for fear of spreading the Bermuda. Bermuda is the Terminator of grasses (hard to stop) and it is the combination of multiple herbicides, overseeding and winter temps that will limit its potential for spread and regrowth. Instead you can make sure to use a roller to get good seed to soil contact. This is what I am doing.

Do you really need to dethatch? Some thatch to 0.25 inch of thatch is good to have because it promotes good microbe growth in the soil. You should only dethatch if it is indicated.

FYI, I applied Pylex/triclopyr at the 1mL/M rate to my lawn yesterday so the experiment begins. It is important to apply every 21 days because you want to make sure the Bermuda takes a hit just as it trys to recover.
 
#18 ·
DocV said:
edixon88 said:
Hey @DocV, thank you for all of your valuable insight into Bermuda control options! I'm going to be doing a TTTF overseed in mid-September and have a question.

I did my first application of Pylex/Triclopyr/MSO on 8/1 and will continue with the two follow up apps(minus Triclopyr on the last) on the sections of my yard that have Bermuda, but I am also going to be dethatching with my sun joe and most likely the scarify attachment prior to the overseed.

I understand that cutting the rhizomes can cause Bermuda to spread even more, but would I be safe doing this after the chemicals apps? Or should I just avoid dethatching those areas even though there is a good amount of thatch built up?

Thanks!
Personally I would not scarify for fear of spreading the Bermuda. Bermuda is the Terminator of grasses (hard to stop) and it is the combination of multiple herbicides, overseeding and winter temps that will limit its potential for spread and regrowth. Instead you can make sure to use a roller to get good seed to soil contact. This is what I am doing.

Do you really need to dethatch? Some thatch to 0.25 inch of thatch is good to have because it promotes good microbe growth in the soil. You should only dethatch if it is indicated.

FYI, I applied Pylex/triclopyr at the 1mL/M rate to my lawn yesterday so the experiment begins. It is important to apply every 21 days because you want to make sure the Bermuda takes a hit just as it trys to recover.
Thanks! I definitely need to dethatch as much of the yard as I can. We bought the house two summers ago and this is the first time I've had a chance to do anything other than mow. From the looks of it, the lawn hasn't been taken care of in 10+ years so along with the Bermuda, there's plenty of thatch, and other weeds(which herbicides have been working well on so far).

Also, is there anything I should apply to the Bermuda areas when spring comes around? I know it doesn't start to pop up until temps rise but would love to suppress it as early as I can if possible.
 
#19 ·
You cannot suppress it until it starts to come out of dormancy. I am experimenting with fluazifop + triclopyr in the spring just as it greens up and then Pylex + triclopyr in the fall. See my post above for recommendations on timing of the applications. If you really want to get exact you can use this website (https://www.greencastonline.com/growing-degree-days/home) to calculate the GDD10C for your area and apply near those times.
 
#20 ·
Hey @DocV, another question for you. I understand that most of your knowledge on this is from research (and comprehending everything better than most of us) rather than experience, but what are your thought on combining Pylex/Tenacity at overseed?

I did my first Pylex/Triclopyr/MSO app on 8/1, browned a good amount of my yard(knew it would going in due to existing heat stress) and I'm finally seeing a little bleaching as of yesterday. I'm planning on a second app around 8/22 with possibly making some minor ratio tweaks. Then around 9/12 doing the final app of just Pylex and overseeding.

The Bermuda is only in certain sections of my lawn and I will be dethatching and overseeding the rest as normal, but was planning on spraying Tenacity as a pre-emergent. Do you think I'd be safe doing a blanket spray of tenacity over everything in addition to the Pylex on the Bermuda areas or should I try to keep them separate?
 
#21 ·
I don't have experience combining the Pylex and Tenacity but they are the same herbicide class so applying both is a bit of overkill. However Pylex has no pre-emergent activity like Tenacity. Pylex kills roughly 34 of the 50 weeds Tenacity kills so there is significant overlap. I too am using Pylex and plan to overseed so I am going to apply Tenacity 1 week before the final Pylex app and that Tenacity application should just be losing its efficacy when it is time to reapply the Tenacity. I could not find any good research on their combined use but Tenacity and Pylex do not seem to induce much stress on fescue unlike fluazifop.
 
#22 ·
Doc,

Great info here and thanks for this. I live an hour east of Nashville and am planning on trying to burn down a 10k sq ft patch of bermuda mixed with my TTTF. I just ordered the Pylex, but have some questions about the triclopyr and MSO application rate and product. I plan to spray from a pump backpack, and usually spray about 5k sq ft with about 3 gallons of water plus product.

For triclopyr, you are using triclopyr with 4lb active ingredient per gallon? Something like this: https://www.domyown.com/alligare-triclopyr-p-20562.html.

The MSO application is what I am a little more confused about. I bought this: https://www.domyown.com/prime-source-duo-stick-p-12239.html. When you add your MSO, what rate are you adding it at? Are you just sticking to the label recommendation? Low or high side of recommended rate? When I look at this: https://www.betterturf.basf.us/content/dam/cxm/agriculture/better-turf/united-states/english/products/pylex-herbicide/pylex-herbicide-sell-sheet.pdf it recommends a rate of MSO of 0.50%. No clue what the means. Can you provide a little more detail on your application rate for MSO? Thank you!
 
#23 ·
@Suny12 As you know water is just a carrier for the herbicide so overall volume/1000 sqft is not that important so long as it is enough to get even, good coverage. I spray 113 fl.oz./1000 sqft but recently purchased new Teejet tips that allow me to spray 1 gallon/1000 sqft just to make it easier to use the gallon marks on the sprayer. I assume you have calibrated your sprayer.

The triclopyr I purchased is just that product, Alligare Triclopyr 4, but the gallon size from another site.

I follow the rate of MSO on the Pylex label at 0.75% volume to volume. The label calls for 0.5-1.0% volume to volume. Volume to volume (v/v) means a percent of the total volume in volume of product. As such for 128 oz, I add 1.0 mL Pylex, 22 mL triclopyr, 1 oz MSO and 7 mL marking dye to 64 oz water, mix and bring the total volume to 128 oz.

I bought 10 mL and 30 mL syringes at Amazon.
 
#24 ·
edixon88 said:
Hey @DocV, another question for you. I understand that most of your knowledge on this is from research (and comprehending everything better than most of us) rather than experience, but what are your thought on combining Pylex/Tenacity at overseed?

I did my first Pylex/Triclopyr/MSO app on 8/1, browned a good amount of my yard(knew it would going in due to existing heat stress) and I'm finally seeing a little bleaching as of yesterday. I'm planning on a second app around 8/22 with possibly making some minor ratio tweaks. Then around 9/12 doing the final app of just Pylex and overseeding.

The Bermuda is only in certain sections of my lawn and I will be dethatching and overseeding the rest as normal, but was planning on spraying Tenacity as a pre-emergent. Do you think I'd be safe doing a blanket spray of tenacity over everything in addition to the Pylex on the Bermuda areas or should I try to keep them separate?
Hi edison88, I asked the BASF rep if the use of Tenacity and Pylex at the same time while overseeding is advised. I will post his answer here when I get it which should be a few days as he is very responsive. However he may not know because Pylex is made by BASF and Tenacity is made by Syngenta.
 
#25 ·
DocV said:
edixon88 said:
Hey @DocV, another question for you. I understand that most of your knowledge on this is from research (and comprehending everything better than most of us) rather than experience, but what are your thought on combining Pylex/Tenacity at overseed?

I did my first Pylex/Triclopyr/MSO app on 8/1, browned a good amount of my yard(knew it would going in due to existing heat stress) and I'm finally seeing a little bleaching as of yesterday. I'm planning on a second app around 8/22 with possibly making some minor ratio tweaks. Then around 9/12 doing the final app of just Pylex and overseeding.

The Bermuda is only in certain sections of my lawn and I will be dethatching and overseeding the rest as normal, but was planning on spraying Tenacity as a pre-emergent. Do you think I'd be safe doing a blanket spray of tenacity over everything in addition to the Pylex on the Bermuda areas or should I try to keep them separate?
Hi edison88, I asked the BASF rep if the use of Tenacity and Pylex at the same time while overseeding is advised. I will post his answer here when I get it which should be a few days as he is very responsive. However he may not know because Pylex is made by BASF and Tenacity is made by Syngenta.
Thanks for going above and beyond! You're providing a ton of value to a lot of people with your posts!
 
#26 ·
@DocV how do you read the Pylex label with respect to overseeding following Pylex application? Can you reseed immediately after application and anytime thereafter? I read it to mean don't spray for 28 days after seeding but not the opposite.

One more question - what do you do with the dead Bermuda? I cannot help but wanted to pull it. Will you do anything to remove it before you overseed or just let it die and decompose?